As part of our January Spotlight on The Ghosts Betwixt, we strive to inform readers of little extra tidbits surrounding the game. Games are made by people, and one of those tidbits we enjoy is learning a little bit more about the people behind them. Some designers shy away from the public stage, while others enjoy being front and center.
For inaugural designer Dustin Freund, he couldn’t be more ready to talk about anything and everything around his creation. Clearly derived from a place where passion and enthusiasm intertwine with creative vision, his path to creating The Ghosts Betwixt was both an endurance run and firmly the result of ample creative energy. What makes his particular tale of first-timer debuts slightly different is that in his case, the story came first. Dustin had a story he wanted to tell, and the game became the ultimate vehicle of choice for doing that. Undeterred about treading into well-established waters with some heavy-hitting contemporary titles, conveying this story became the driving focal lens through which he navigated the ambitious and arduous task of making a viable, compelling, and entertaining dungeon crawler. He’ll be the first to tell you that it wasn’t always the easiest road, but he’s thrilled to tell anyone who’d like to know more about the journey it took to get here.
We, naturally, couldn’t say no to hearing more about that.
Of course, diving into the unknown lies at the heart of the experience in The Ghosts Between. In this 90’s era themed dungeon crawler, an average Midwestern family has had their youngest child kidnapped and taken into the neighboring family’s farmhouse. Normally a ramshackle place most of the time, the Bennert family made a name for themselves for transforming it into an annual haunted house of regional fame. In more recent times, however, interest has waned, and there have been indications that certain things in the building have started going bump in their night all on their own.
In this family-focused co-op, each player acts as one of the family members who must journey in to the Bennert house and try to locate the missing Richie. Taking turns, players will proceed through a series of story-driven missions by exploring their surroundings, fending off monsters, and ultimately trying to unravel exactly what the heck those Bennerts are up to. Only through collective collaboration and a bit of luck (as with all dungeon crawlers) can you solve the mystery at the heart of it all. Alongside a continuous story and plenty of irreverent humor, players need to load up on whatever grit, moxy, household cleaners, blunt objects, and makeshift explosives they can cobble together. Here’s hoping it’s enough.
The Ghosts Betwixt is the end result of several long years of design-by-fire, extensive playtesting, and exhaustive reworks – as one would only expect for a game of this kind. But Dustin wouldn’t have it any other way. We wanted to learn what went into bringing this game to life, and once schedules aligned, he was quite happy to oblige. We share part of that conversation with you today.
Enjoy!
Round One Questions
CR: What was your Gateway Game?
Descent 2nd Edition. Several years ago I began getting a little bored with video games and decided to check out tabletop games – specifically dungeon crawlers. I loved HeroQuest as a kid, so I thought maybe I should return to the hobby. I saw pictures of Descent and couldn’t believe how incredible it looked on the table. I bought it and instantly fell in love with tabletop dungeon crawlers. I was hooked.
CR: What was the last game you really enjoyed playing (besides your own titles)?
The last game I played which I love is Mage Knight. However, I currently have Aftermath set up on my table and can’t wait to learn it.
CR: How big is your game collection?
CR: What is your favorite type of game to play?
Campaign-driven dungeon crawlers, obviously!
CR: Should have seen that coming. Ok, how do you feel about Monopoly, then?
Honestly, I think it gets a bad rap! Throughout my life I’ve enjoyed many games of Monopoly. Similarly to how every now and then I like a Miller Lite instead of a heavy IPA, sometimes a game of Monopoly with the family hits the spot.
On The Ghosts Betwixt
CR: First off, we’re really curious about the time frame of the game. Why the 90s? What was it about your vision of the game that made it the right fit?
I’m a pretty nostalgic guy and have really fond memories of being a kid and teenager in the 90s. It’s a time period that feels really familiar to me, and perhaps there’s some innocence there I wanted to explore that predates cell phones, the internet, etc. I think there’s a reason the “kids on bikes” genre is popular – it just reminds us of good times growing up and the freedom and sense of adventure we had back then.
CR: The background story of Ghosts Betwixt (a Midwestern family who used to run a locally-famous haunted house) feels like it may have some real-world roots. When designing the premise, were there any tales or events from your life you incorporated into the Bennert tale?
CR: Creating a dungeon crawler as your inaugural design is no easy feat, both in terms of the effort involved and an ever-growing genre of titles. What was your inspiration behind wanting to take on the task of making Ghosts Betwixt?
I certainly appreciate that question because you’re absolutely right: designing The Ghosts Betwixt as my first game was a ridiculously challenging project. It really all started with me attempting to tell the story of the malevolent Bennert Family through a novel. After several weeks of working on the novel, it just didn’t feel right.
Around this time, I really began falling in love with tabletop dungeon crawlers and was heavily into Shadows of Brimstone. I saw a huge opportunity to combine this story I desperately wanted to tell and my new hobby of board games. I’ve always needed a source of creativity in my life, so I thought this would be a fun project to explore.
I’ll never forget one day while mowing my backyard I committed to it. I told myself, if I decide to take the next step, I absolutely have to finish it, no matter how time consuming, challenging or expensive it gets.
I had to learn game design from the absolute basics. I listened to dozens of podcasts, followed every game design Facebook group I could find, made friends in the industry and asked them tons of questions. That first year was really all about prepping for what was to come, and really experimenting with different mechanics. Trying out different dice probabilities, ways to randomize dungeons, how to make combat interesting rather than mindless – it was just a ton of trial and error. But what I did have going for me was a PHD in gaming throughout my life. I know what I find fun, so I figured if I made a game I thought was fun, surely others would too.
Ghost Betwixt player board
CR: Ghosts Betwixt boasts many of the things one would commonly find in a dungeon crawler – map exploration, monster combat, character leveling, a progressive campaign story, etc. In your opinion, what do you feel are some of the elements that best set it apart from similar games?
Secondly, I think The Ghosts Betwixt adds some important mechanical contributions to the dungeon crawler genre. For example, one issue I’ve had with certain dungeon crawlers is the targeting of monster AI. In some games, monsters just target the hero closest to them. I always found that a little uninspired, and also you can sometimes game the system by just keeping a near-death hero away from monsters. I knew in my game I wanted to do something different. That’s why I designed the Target Token system. Each monster randomly draws a Target Token, which could be of any family member. Sometimes, for example, you may get unlucky and all the monsters are focused on your family member who has 1 health point left, and you have to figure out how to keep him or her alive. This Target Token system creates some very interesting situations.
I could go on and on, but those two really stand out.
CR: There’s a fair amount of lighthearted tongue-in-cheek humor in the flavor of the game without going so far as to be farcical. How did you decide on the tone of the game, and what sort of design challenges did you face when balancing between the humorous and more serious aspects?
Case in point
I haven’t been shy when saying Earthbound is by far the greatest inspiration for The Ghosts Betwixt. Back when I was a kid and first discovered and played Earthbound, I was just blown away by so many things: its setting in a familiar world (no castles or swords but houses and baseball bats!) and its overwhelming style of not taking itself too seriously. However, it still had a ton of heart when it wanted to. That game really taught me that a humorous game can still make you feel something.
Just because The Ghosts Betwixt includes monsters named ‘Unslenderman’ and ‘Shadow Puppet People’, and weapons like the ‘Stern Yet Fair Hammer’ and ‘Tappy Tap Beatin’ Stick’, along with all the silly banter between the family, there are still heartfelt and serious moments throughout the story. At the end of the day, it’s still a serious situation where a family is trying to save their kidnapped son. Because this story involves a family as the heroes in a modern day setting, it’s easy for players to vicariously find themselves and their own families in this environment. I think that seriousness of the situation and the humor found throughout the rest of the game create a really fun contrast to where it never feels too heavy or too silly.
CR: Given its modest complexity as a dungeon crawler, Ghosts Betwixt is a game about a kid more than a game for kids (though it is still largely family friendly). When playtesting/demoing/showcasing the game how often did you run into cases of mismatched audience expectations? What steps did you take to mitigate that possibility?
However, what I think you’re referring to is the artistic style which some might find a bit Saturday morning cartoonish. This game was actually far in development before we landed on the art style. I experimented with a few different artists, and what they made was great but it never felt quite right. Then I met Travis Hanson and he began developing a few concepts for me. It was absolutely perfect. There’s a fun vibrant look to everything, and things are spooky enough but never truly scary. That’s exactly the vibe I was looking for.
But you are absolutely right – a lot of folks have checked out The Ghosts Betwixt and have found a game perhaps more involved than what they were expecting. I’ve had a few instances at conventions where people have started playing and weren’t really into it. They were not expecting such a tactical experience. And that’s alright by me! As long as the audience for whom I’ve created this game really enjoy it, then mission accomplished. That’s really been my goal all along: to find a somewhat niche audience who think The Ghosts Betwixt is one of the best dungeon crawlers ever made. I knew from day one this wasn’t going to be a mass market type of game.
CR: When playtesting / demoing the game, do you have any particularly favorite / memorable moments?
Several do come to mind, but one really does stand out. My family and I went on a trip to the Lake of the Ozarks and shared a lake house with several other families. One of the sons heard I was going to be there with my game. I was absolutely shocked when he told me he knew about it and how badly he wanted to play it. So we found some time to play it one night. He kept saying how he couldn’t believe I made it and he was playing it with the designer. That was just an awesome experience for me. I’ve never felt quite like that before.
CR: You’ve spoken elsewhere about the need to split the story into 2 campaign “chapters” during crowdfunding to keep the price point manageable. What was the most difficult part of that choice to make? And did it make you think about envisioning future chapters or campaigns for the Bennert family?
Exploring the maps is key to the larger story…
This was by far the most important decision we made during this campaign from a financial and logistical perspective. If we hadn’t split it into two chapters, I’m not sure The Ghosts Betwixt would’ve become a reality. I have the entire story (for the most part) built out, so the original idea was to tell the complete story in one game. However, that included tons more environments (more map tiles), monsters, characters, etc. It just wasn’t possible on a somewhat meager budget. Plus, it would’ve taken far longer to finish the game and get it to a place I would’ve been happy with.
Splitting up the game into two chapters let the game and the story breathe a little more. It allowed me to slow everything down just a little bit, develop the characters more throughout each mission, and ultimately I think it improved the game drastically.
The most difficult part of splitting the game into two chapters was probably finding a satisfying ending to Chapter 1. I really struggled to find an endpoint which made sense and offered a compelling cliffhanger, all in one story beat. What I came up with is probably not what anyone is expecting! But I think it really works on many levels, as hopefully more and more players soon discover. But yes, there were many nights staring at the ceiling trying to figure out how to end Chapter 1 and get people excited for Chapter 2.
Let me tell you though, I’m so excited to begin sharing Chapter 2 with everyone. It’s going to be a far different game than Chapter 1 in a lot of ways. More to come on that topic.
CR: Finally, who was your favorite 90s character while living through the 90s and why? Who is your favorite 90s character now?
Wow, now that’s a question! You know I can’t choose just one:
• Pennywise the Dancing Clown – Does and says anything he wants, and truly enjoys being IT.
• Ness from Earthbound – A sweet boy trying to save the world the only way he knows how: with a baseball bat and his psychic powers.
• Kefka from Final Fantasy VI – A truly unique and evil villain who I loved to hate. I can hear his 16-bit laugh now.
• Seth Garin from Stephen King’s The Regulators – One of my favorite of all of Stephen King’s twisted ideas is a boy whose imagination becomes reality, and he doesn’t even know it.
As with nearly every designer, that first published game is a huge milestone. It’s the end result of countless hours of physical, mental, and emotional energy, spirited forth almost entirely on the desire to bring their dream to reality. Even with the most modest of game titles, it’s a lot. To have a comprehensive and compelling scenario-based dungeon crawler be your first endeavor is something else entirely. And we for one want to reward that effort. What better way to start 2022 than with a decent success story of perseverance without losing one’s sense of humor in the process. Both of those can be found in The Ghosts Betwixt. In this 90’s era game, your main focus is to work cooperatively as a family to sneak, slash, and barge your way through a seemingly haunted house brought to life as you try to save your youngest from kidnappers and figure out exactly what the creepy Bennerts are up to in that barn of theirs. With both heart and humor, The Ghosts Betwixt is a spooky adventure just waiting for you to take up the call.
We thought about a multitude of ways to come up with some silly or clever means to help highlight the game (seriously we lost track of the number of ideas bandied about that revolved around iconic 90s music in some way), but rather than shoehorn something in for the sake of it, we found the best approach to champion this charming game would be to let you experience it for yourself. So we’re raffling off a copy of the game in celebration. Which you can enter at the link below! Whether you want to toss on your favorite hits of the 90s afterwards we’ll leave up to you.
Hella Rewarding: A Ghosts Betwixt Giveaway
Photo Credits: The Ghosts Betwixt cover and photos by Innocent Traveler Games.